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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 11:28:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Jint Hikaru
When will you cry babys learn that SALVAGE is a first come first served item. Thats what salvage is.... the first person to 'salvage' gains owner**** rights to the salvagable items.
If you want the salvage then take of a module from your mission ship and fit a salvager. Yes I know it will 'gimp' your minmax missioning setup (waaaa, something else to cry about), and it will add whole mins to your missioning time, totally ruining your isk/hour mission income (another waaaaa).
On a more important note - Sausage sandwich in white bloomer bread with fried egg and a little cheese + brown sauce!
I'm going to laugh of so ****ing hard when they finally nerf Ninja salvaging.
And believe me it's coming. Because there isn't another mechanic in this game that is so obviously borked to anyone with an ounce of common sense.
Don't believe me that it's going to get nerfed? Then riddle me this ninja man, why would they need to add the functionality to mark wrecks as FFA if they planned on keeping the currect system as is?
My suspicion is that the Ninja salvages are going to get a very rude awakening with the Dominion patch.
Now I could be wrong but I think not. And those are some tears that I can't wait to harvest.
You say,"but but but" once again why unless there were plans to change the existing wreck ownership mechanic would CCP waste the resources to code the ability to grant FFA access to wrecks? The answer is there isn't any other justification. Because the status quo is FFA wrecks as it is so the added functionality must have a reason.
Soon Ninja Salvaging will have the same risks associated with it as can flipping. Which seems more than reasonable. I mean how hard would it be to mount some guns on your salvage ship so you could fight the mission runners for their loot?
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:36:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
- Make an alt, train salvaging and astrometrics to 1.
- Undock in a frig with a single salvager fitted and a probe launcher fitted.
- Go salvage wrecks. Since you'll fail at salvaging so much, eventually some bear will shoot at you too early.
- ????
- Tears and/or profit.
This will happen a lot if you make salvaging flag people.
Only the true noobs and hell learning the agro mechanic is part of the game besides those aren't the people running level 4s and if they are they deserve to get concordorked.
All the mission runner has to do is wait for the salvager to start blinking and the wreck to poof.
What I don't understand is how people can defend the status quo while calling those calling for Jetcan like agro mechanisms the carebears. If you ask me the carebears are the people defending the current risk free ninja-salvaging.
Such flagging would not eliminate ninja salvaging, people would still be able to do it. It would just become a real ninja thing.
Snoop out a mission pop in take a look if the MR is there then just BM and come back later and try to sneak in when they are at the next stage or while they're going back for their salvager.
Now Ninja-salvaging is no longer risk free yet it's still a viable profession. Mission runners no longer have a reason to whine.
If the salvagers bring in sufficient firepower to deter the MR from agroing, so be it, mission runner writes off the salvage on that mission.
Personally the problem I see with the situation and I think that most Mission runners probably agree isn't that ninja salvaging happens and is a viable profession. But rather that as it currently stands it's someone else profiting off their work. And they are left with no options to defend their claims.
An agression flag even if the outcome in most cases didn't change (ninja's still get salvage because they either snuck around when you weren't there or came in with sufficient firepower to enforce their claim) The fact that the MR had the option to take action makes it more palatable.
It also makes it more consistent with the "cold harsh universe" thing. What the **** is so cold and harsh about coming into a battle feild and looting the corpses while the combatants are still present if you did that in a real "cold harsh universe" you're going to get a bullet for your trouble.
Also the ninja's aren't risking "death" unless they are stupid enough to get podded in hisec and the Mission Runner is willing to take a sec status hit. All they are risking is their ship. (and a low risk at that as long as they aren't stupidly salvaging right under the MR's guns.) Which is the exact same thing the Mission Runner did to make those wrecks in the first place. (yeah I know not that much risk in Mission running but low risk is not the same as no risk and not all Mission Runners are 5 year vets rolling in perfectly optimized Marauders.
Hell a particularly thrill seeker of a Ninja in a fast salvaging frigate could have fun salvaging wrecks with the MR present. playing cat and mouse with the MR on wrecks that are on the edge of the battle (BC's and BS's are slow as **** in mission after all)
Even if the end result was mostly the same the mission runners simply knowing that they do indeed have a recourse other than drag a second account along with a salvage fit destroyer would put an end to all these threads. Hell just think how much it would save CCP on hard disk space alone when the ninja-salvage threads disapear.
BTW I couldn't find the post on the wreck flaggin mechanism it was a month or so ago and there was much debate about what it meant mostly from the Ninja's claiming that since it didn't say they were flagging wrecks as owned that it really meant nothing. But since the forum search engine sucks and ninja-salvaging one of the hotter topics in eve I wasn't able to find it.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 15:25:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 19/10/2009 15:26:18
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Can you explain why ninjasalvaging should have risk when missions themselves, which pay better, have none?
Once again low risk is not the same as no risk. You can indeed lose a ship in missions admitedly it's not a huge risk if you have some experience and play smart but it's still possible.
Ninja salvaging has effectivley 0 risk.
Besides flagging salvagers actually adds risk to mission running since it is entirely possible to salvage in a ship that can fight (as all the ninja's are always telling the mission runners to do) so it is entirelly with in the realm of possibility for the salvager to destroy the mission runners ship.
Once again everyone keeps pretending that the only people who run missions are high SP vets in perfectly optimized ships. Personally I'm running level 3s with a PVP fit BC I'm barely qualified to fly and a couple buddies in similar situations. And I plan on doing L4's as soon as I can get my faction standings high enough and I'll most likely be doing it in the same ship with only marginally better skills.
Not everyone is min-maxing vet. In fact I'd suspect that those high sp fully optmized min-maxing mission runners are most likely a minority.
Hell as I understand it the real min-maxers doing L4s don't really mess with salvage (or they salvage the choice wrecks on the fly) since they can make more isk chaining the missions.
And even in the case of those high sp fully optimized min-maxers it still took them a significant investment of time and resources to train to use those marauders with good skills.
The only justification for the current system is that it enables no risk griefing.
Every other activity where characters are able to "grief" others carry some level of risk. The can flipper can get ganked the pirate can get hotdroped. Even the suicider can run into a hero tanked hulk/hauler and get nothing for their troubles. The noob wardecers can get noobswarmed the lowsec gatecampers can get blobed to oblivions.
Only ninja-salvaging is allowed to persist with no player innitiated counter.
I'm not asking for Concord to get involved only for them to turn a blind eye too someone defending their own property just like they do when someone flips a miners can.
As it stands now the 'ninjas' are hiding behind Concords protection. Based on some lame rationalizations that CCP dreampt up to avoid having to fix the mechanism.
BTW Jint my rants aren't directed towards you or anyone in particular. This is an argument about an video game mechanic there's nothing personal meant or implied. I disagree with those who are defending the status quo that doesn't mean that I think they are bad or stupid people on that I think that their position on this question is wrong.
But I'll still laugh my ass off when/if CCP changes salvaging to an agression flag. And I've seen too many dead horses raised from the dead to buy the working as intended never going to change argument.
Feel free to giggle with glee when/if I'm wrong.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:14:00 -
[4]
Found the link
link
"Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. "
Admittedly this is open to interpretion primarily upon what CCP means when they refer to "player owned wrecks" they could mean only those wrecks generated by the destruction of the players ship. Then again I wasn't aware that there was any conord action in those cases anyway (save for an agression flag)
But having a mechanic in place to mark wrecks specifically as FFA definitely leaves an opening for a change in the current salvaging situation.
Regardless the status quo is stupid and frankly I'm not interested in being lectured on risk by someone who engages in a profession that is even less risky than missoin running.
As far as competition for resources go? I'm all fine with competing but don't pretend for a moment that it's a competition between a frigate and a BC/BS with a single tractor and salvager on a these several dozen klick battlefields.
The L3 mission I did last night was so spread out that there were wrecks 150km apart even looting on the move I filled my cargohold completely before we even cleared the 1st stage. In the end salvaging on the fly was taking so much time that we just fought through then I went and bought 4 tractors and 3 salvagers stuck em on my Brutix and went back and cleaned up after the mission.
This prompted me to go ahead and buy a Catalyst to set up for salvaging.
Now under the proposed change to flag unauthorized salvagers they still cold have come along behind us and salvaged the wrecks while we were fighting the next stage or going back for a salvage fit there only real risk would be if they did it under our noses. Well the vulture doesn't get with in paws reach of the lion when they're stealing from a carcus. Why shouldn't EVE's scavangers have to behave the same.
They could also have rolled in which 2-3 battleships and we'd have had to have just written off the salvage (and probably the loot too) but that's a risk in a PVP game. The cheatah will surender it's kill to the lion pride too.
Pretending that the Mission runner is the "carebear" in this situation is silly unless you're definition of carebear is "non-greifer".
Further deny it all you want but if it weren't for the mission runners doing all the work to grind the factions to earn the isks to buy the ships and get the skills to fly those ships to run those missions there would be no wrecks to salvage.
The Salvager who wants to salvage without the potential risk of getting poped by a ****ed off mission runner can always do what the mission runner does and go get missions to make their own friggin wrecks to salvage.
Rationalize it all you want the reality remains that ninja salvaging is sponging off someone elses work and that's theft. Now theft is a valid playstyle in EVE and that's fine but the theives should not be able to hide behind Concords skirt to avoid the consequences of their activity.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Metalcali
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Found the link
link
"Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. "
Admittedly this is open to interpretion primarily upon what CCP means when they refer to "player owned wrecks" they could mean only those wrecks generated by the destruction of the players ship. Then again I wasn't aware that there was any conord action in those cases anyway (save for an agression flag)
Thank you for that. Guess this is why it wasn't in the dev blogs. Also, this is very loaded as it has several means of interpretation. Best course of action is wait and see how they refer to this before anything can be claimed as concrete.
I did love this quote though
"The legendary Ammatar Commander Genom Tara has spotted a typo error in his description. We have fixed it and shot those responsible for writing it!"
Like I said it's open to intepretation and I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but this seems like a mechanic that is ripe for a revamp.
The current status is completely inconsistent with the rest of the game.
It generates a lot of forum volume and argument.
And I don't buy the dead horse argument I saw way to many dead horses resurected back my EQ days. Just because a dev says a thing one year does not make it eternal. Particularly when the bean counters think that they might be wrong.
I also disagree that flagging would prevent newbies from getting into the salvaging profession I think it would simply add a little more excitement to it.
Hell my first PVP battle I was near useless because all the adrenaline pumping though my system. But it was also fun as hell even if I wasn't close to successful (Joined RvB mostly to get over that combat jitter thing)
I think it would be far more interesting to scan down a mission pop in and see if they are there Bookmark and boogie if they are then come back in a few minutes and try to scavange while they are off doing something else. All the while watching the scanner to see if they come back.
A good PVPer could also bait an over confident mission runner and potentially generate ransom/loot that way.
Basically I see a large number of reasons for changing the current system but only one to leave it as is. That one reason being that CCP has in the past defended the practice. Well they can easily change their minds on that.
Flagging wrecks like jetcans is good for the mission runners in that it gives them the option to do something about an activity that annoys them.
It's good for the PvPrs since it's more oportunity for spaceship pew pew, It's good for hte miners and industrialists since more spaceship pew pew means more blowed up ships which means more demand for ships which means more demand for minerals.
Even for the newb salvagers it would be good in that they'd have to learn survival skills and be exposed to the risk that life in EVE is.
In fact the only people I can see who it wouldn't be good for are those who's only interest is no risk griefing.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Skex Relbore
no risk griefing.
As opposed to no risk mission running?
And its only griefing if the mission runner is stupid enough into think the salvage is theirs (i.e. its griefing in the mission runner's perspective).
Otherwise, its just a professional salvager...salvaging.
Once again, Low risk is not no risk.
And there is a damned site more risk running missions than in Ninja salvaging.
You can loose ships to lag to misjudgements to ignorance to incompetence, There most certainly is risk in mission running. And futher people tend to fly more expensive ships so while the risk of loss might be lower than in other activities the potential loss is actually much greater.
What's the salvager risking? A cheap frig a salvager and a probe launcher? What's that a few milliion compared to a mission ship like a Faction BS or Marauder? Hell even compared to my BC it's a pitance of risk. A single tech 2 drone costs more than the Ninja Salvager is risking even if ninja salvaging where changed to flag for agression.
So don't use risk to defend this activity.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.21 14:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru
Can someone tell me why a mission runner would cry so hard about a Salvager salvaging a wreck in space having 'No Risk',
Yet you dont hear them crying that Miners mining a roid in space having 'No Risk'.
Once again, its mission runners not accepting that Salvage only 'belongs' to someone once it has been salvaged from a wreck.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.21 15:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Mark my words!
If salvage becomes a flagging offense there will be more mission runner ships destroyed in high sec then ever before.
There will be more crying in high sec local:
"Give me back my stuff you...you mean person!"
There will be more stupid questions in high sec local:
"This dude is red to me. What do I do?"
There will be more sarcastic answers in high sec local:
"Shoot him, shoot him now!"
And finally, there will be more mission runners in pods in high sec local:
"I shot him and a bunch of other people jumped into my mission and all I got was this pod."
2 reasons why I don't see this happening.
1.) Most all the people against a salvage flag like cans are all ninja salvagers.
2.) I see alot of PvP corps doing more missions just to gank ninja salvagers.
Seriously if salvaging a wreck that you didn't help make gets you agro I see alot of PVP crps doing missions just to set up Salvage Ganks. I know I would. And the best part is Ninja Salvagers would be - atleast one slot for a salvager. That's pure pwnage, no stations, no gates, backup has to go through gates too... But hey that's the risk you have to take when you steal from someone.
Oh it's even better than that.
The agro is only on the person who loots/salvages so their corpmates/buddies can't join in unless the mission runner agroes them. Sure they can RR but the Mission runners corp mates will be able to aggress the ninja with impunity as well so that balances out.
Just think of all the pretty 'splosions and the rise in mineral prices as the demand for ships increases.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.22 15:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jint Hikaru
The point I am trying to make is that the statment that "A NS has no risk" is wrong.
The NS has exactly the same risk from the mission enviroment as the Mission runner. Its just that to start with the games agro finger is pointing at the mission runner.
Several problems with your argument.
First the only real risk the NS faces is if they happen to pop into Recon 3.
Second not all MR's run perfectly optimized setups not all are perfectly skilled running around in Marauders.
Right now I'm running missions in what is essentially a PVP ship, The only thing I'm changing on my fit is swapping the MWD for an AB since MWDs don't work in deadspace.
I'm doing this because I believe in training the way that you fight and I think it develops bad habits if you fight one way in missions and completley differently in PVP. So if you come into my mission and loot my cans your likely to get scrammed and webbed and a rack of Modal Neutron blasters in your face and no gaping resistance holes in my tank.
I tend to push the missions as well, I had to repair my hull twice last night because I waited until a little too late to warp out.
That there is low probability of loosing what you risk in missions no one argues but the NS has no credibility when it comes to discussing risk since they are engaged in a profession that is even lower risk (both in amount of isk on the line and probability of loss).
Flagging NSer would actually increase the risk level on missions because some MR's would engage in fights against opponents who outmatch them.
As far as the ability for the MR to "beat" the NS at salvaging in the current system? Give me a break. I did my first big L3 the other night up until that momemnt I did actually salvage as I went on missions but on this mission my hold was full before I even cleared the first room I ended up just saying screw it running the mission then coming back after swapping all my blasters for tractors and salvagers.
Then when I was done I bought a destroyer and fitted it as a dedicated salvage rig.
So yeaeh it's a real competition between a ninja in a fast frigate with 2 or 3 salvagers equiped that can be rigged with a salvage tackle, speed and cargo capacity since they don't have to worry about feilding a tank and a plated trimarked BC or BS moving around at sub 300ms on AB while probably fighting rats.
And to the poster who said that some MRs are asking for exclusive access to salvage I say maybe there are but they aren't the ones in this thread. Someone who wanted salvage to be the exclusive property of the MR would be asking for theives to be concordorked and would get soundly derided as being just as much a bunch of risk averse carebears as are the NSs in this thread.
And yes some stupid MRs would end up getting ganked if this sort of change took place. To which I say good. Any time you activate an agressive module on another ship you are taking a risk and people need to understand that and loosing a 100mil isk ship should go a long way towards emphasising this lesson.
In the end it comes down to this. The only justification for the existing state is "CCP said so" well having played MMO's for a number of years I've lost track of the number of deadhorses that Devs said were working as intended and would never be change only to be dug up, resurected and healed.
The objective of this thread is to convince CCP to say "you know you're right ninja-salvaging should cause an agression flag" at which point that becomes the defacto standard and the NS's would have to come up with arguements to return to the previous state (good ****ing luck with that).
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.22 15:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
But being the selfish person that I am, and wanting to have things that are good for my corporation (I am after all a company man), I still would like to see what would happen if taking salvage becomes a flagging offense. Would the type of play style I participate in the most (blowing up mission runners) improve or would it stay the same?
I suspcect that it would improve significantly.
Currently if someone loots your can in a mission they are obviously looking for a fight and think they have an edge. Since they've been able to scan and research you (including looking for corpmates in local) You'd be a class A moron to take the bait (unless you have your own edge that you think you can surprise them with)
If Salvage caused a flag then there would be some ambiguity. Is that Ninja just a noob salvager who thinks they can get out before you pop them? Or are they a Pirate looking for a gank.
Such a change would add ambiguity to the situation which would result in more people making the call to attack which would result in more pew and more smouldering wrecks littering space (which could then be salvaged).
As I've said in other threads I see lots of upside to flagging ninja salvagers an no downside.
More 'splody ships is good.
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.10.22 16:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
They are not all automatically invalid. If they were you have no common reference, no universe, no game.
RL examples and analogies are all good and sound to use for illustrating a point or trying to make something more understandable, but trying to use RL laws as a justification and an argument fails every time. Contemporary legislation has absolutely no authority over a sci-fi game.
So we should expect people to cease misapplying real world salvage laws to this discussion?
Besides certain laws are fairly universal and while specific application and penalties may vary slightly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, Theft is and has been considered a crime pretty univerally for as long as humans have existed.
No one is asking or the right to pod salvage theives they are simply asking for the right to attempt to destroy their ships.
Note I say attempt, in EVE the right to self defense is sancrosant so even criminals are allowed to defend themselves so the MR who attempts to assert their ownership right would be taking a risk (in many cases a much larger one than the Ninja since mission ships tend to be the most expensive ones).
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